There is always something to be said about a renegade businessman who started with nothing and slowly built his company the hard way. For those looking to make it big in direct response marketing, perhaps you’ll find courage in Doberman Dan’s inspirational story. He is no stranger to the school of hard knocks, fighting back to become successful over and over again. After nine years of serial failure, he used direct response marketing to start a self-publishing business in the bodybuilding niche. About twelve months later, Dan was making enough money to finally to be able to leave his job. Since then that’s been his entire business model for the past 23 years: starting business businesses in different markets and niches using direct response marketing. Now with Marketing Camelot, Dan continues to explore more ways to launch and encourage other entrepreneurs.
How To Succeed In Direct Response Marketing With Doberman Dan
I am in business and work with clients every day. Together, we create businesses that serve others as our highest priority. I have a responsibility to find, curate and deliver the best business building information possible. To do this, I culled through hundreds of profiles and interview requests to bring you the top leaders with incredible information that I think will serve you best. Our guest is a renegade businessman and entrepreneur to the core, starting with nothing and slowly building a company the hard way. He is no stranger to the school of hard knocks but fought back to become successful over and over again. He is one of the lucky few to be mentored by the supreme king, Gary Halbert. He also ran a supplement company, sold it, has written a new book, and now advisers others on how to scale their company. Welcome, Doberman Dan, to the show.
Thanks, Mitch. I’m excited to be here. I’ve been looking forward to this.
I love your writing. I love what you do. I’ve been a follower and admirer for many years. It’s a big joy for me to have you here and I can’t wait to dive in. We’ve got to get this out of the way, Dan. Doberman Dan? You’ve got to explain that.
It’s weird but not as weird as my real last name, Gallapoo. It’s some butchered version of a fairly common French Canadian last name, Gallipo. Maybe some US Immigration guy want to play a little dirty little joke on my great grandfather and put poo on the end of his last name. I’ve never ever liked my last name. Imagine the teasing in the school. The most creative one was some kid in elementary school called Dan Gallon of Poop, which as much as that bothered me, I still had to give the kid kudos for creativity. I never liked my last name.
I was writing articles in the bodybuilding niche back in the early ‘90s. I wrote an article about my Doberman puppy at the time who got in a fight with a 130-pound Rottweiler. My puppy only weighed 65 pounds at the time. I wrote an article about that for a bodybuilding magazine and how I had become the Rottweiler. Lots of heavy power lifting stuff and eating lots of pizza, drinking too much beer, and just big bulky fat gut and how I’m now going to transform myself into a Doberman, lean and muscular. I signed it as a joke, “Doberman Dan.” Then everybody started calling me that, the publisher of the magazine starts calling me that and it just stuck. Even when I left that market and sold that business, it just followed me, which I’m totally fine with. Any time I don’t have to use my last name, nobody can spell it, nobody remembers it, nobody pronounces it but people do remember Doberman Dan. It’s a nom de plume that I’m actually happy I accidentally found.
It’s better than gallon of poop so that’s certainly an upstate. Let’s go back to the beginning. What we’d like to do on this show is we like to start with where people started because you’re a successful guy, you’re well-known, you’ve had several successes in your life, and anyone listening to this show thinks that everybody who shows up just somehow rolled out of bed when they were a teenager and became a millionaire. I think you and I know the difference, and it’s got to be the craziest thing of all. We also know how hard it is to be successful and all the failures that we’ve had to create for ourselves first before we can get to that one rare success. Tell us a little bit about how you started.
I had no life direction or career planning. I was raised by poor parents. After high school I just stumbled around. The only thing I wanted to do, and I figured that out at age seven, was be a professional musician. Actually, not true at age seven, what I want was to be a rock star. Then as I got older and was in high school, it became more realistic and I just wanted to make a living playing music, which I tried. Unfortunately, I didn’t try hard enough. Knowing what I know now and knowing what I’ve learned from persevering, being a bull-headed and stubborn enough to become successful in a business, if I would have applied that to be a musician, I could have been a successful working musician.
Unfortunately, I just didn’t know the lessons of perseverance and persistence at that age, so I failed at being a professional musician. I couldn’t support myself. As they say, Mitch, what’s the difference between a large pizza and a guitar player? The answer is the large pizza can feed a family of four. I failed it that at a young age and then just stumble around from job to job. College, forget it. It was completely out of the question. My family was poor and I just didn’t even consider that was an option for me. Through a series of jobs, long story short, I met some local police officers some buddies of mine were working with and said, “The city in Dayton, Ohio is giving a civil service test for a police officer. We’re going to go take it.” Here’s the extent of my career planning. They say, “You want to go?” I’m like, “Sure. I’m not doing anything else.” I took that test and did really well on it, and the city of Dayton kept calling me back for these different phases of the interview process.
I was playing as a professional musician since age thirteen. When I was fifteen I was out playing in bars with guys ten years older than me. I was a teenager back in the ’80s. There was some experimentation with marijuana. I told him, “As soon as these cops find out how much weed I smoked in high school, I’m certainly going to be disqualified.” It turns out they expected that from a teenager during that time and they just wanted to find people who are going to be honest about it. Anyway, long story short, I was hired on the police department and quickly figured out that is not where I wanted to spend the next 25, 30 years. After about a couple two, three years on the police department, somebody hit me up for the Amway business. All I saw was when you reached this level, they called direct distributor, and you made $2,124 a month in their theoretical example. That was almost to the penny what I was making on the police department. My first thought was, “This looks really simple to do. I’ll do this in the next three to six months, quit the police department, and then I’ll only have to work at this Amway thing a few hours a week, then I can go finally do what I really want to do and go be a musician and play music. I’ll let this Amway thing support me.”
I failed miserably at it in spite of doing three times more than I was told to do, but it was a great experience because it introduced me to the idea that I could start a business. After that, I was on the police department, twelve years. The first three years just full-time comp and that’s about it. Then the last nine, full-time cop, part-time serial failure entrepreneur. I kept trying to start businesses. I didn’t know anything about marketing. I hadn’t discovered direct response marketing. I kept starting these different businesses; a couple of different vending businesses, there was Amway thing that failed, a jewelry business, home improvement business, all kinds of different things. At least two to three years, they all failed. They never even got off the ground. I never made a cent from any of them for nine years straight.
Then I discovered Dan Kennedy and through him found out what direct response marketing is. That led me to using direct response marketing to start an info product business, a self-publishing business in the bodybuilding niche. That was after nine years of serial failure. That was the first business that worked for me. About twelve months later, I was making enough money to finally be able to leave my job. Since then that’s been my entire business model for the past 23 years now, is starting business businesses and different markets and niches using direct response marketing. Initially it was offline because the internet just wasn’t even a viable media for marketing back then, but it’s both offline and online.
Your history is so much like mine and probably so much the people listening to this show. My own background is I was a lead guitar player of a high school rock band and we were the highest grossing high school rock band in our section of Brooklyn and we are out there generating $500 a night before we could even drive. We had to actually get someone’s mom to rent a van or a station wagon and trying to make two trips and get us to where we were going. For me, that really turned me onto business, and from there I tried many, many different things but I ended up getting in trouble with drugs really bad. I eventually had to go into treatment and recover. It’s so common for entrepreneurs, and you’re such a perfect example. You just didn’t give up. Nine years, this is what entrepreneurs have to hear. It’s not overnight. It doesn’t happen fast. Occasionally it does. If you’re Mark Zuckerberg, great; but for the rest of us, it’s going to take time to finally hit something and then work it until it really works. Dan, thanks for sharing that story. That was amazing.
I did not know that about you that you grew up in Brooklyn. I knew about the musician part. It’s interesting. We need to have that conversation another time offline about the music stuff. Nine years, I often get asked, “What kept you going?” I mentally quit a million times. I still do this after every failure. I just had a pretty big one recently. I cry in my beer for a few hours, sometimes a couple days. Not literally. Don’t think that I’m drunk for two days. I lament, I mope around, I’m mad at myself, I’m discouraged, I want to quit, “That’s it, I’m done. I quit.” I must have quit a million times during those nine years, but for just for very short period of time, for a couple of hours or maybe a day or so, and then it was back on the horse. I don’t know if it’s some form of mental illness. Any sane person would have quit after that first year. It’s brutal enough just three business failures leaving you discouraged, depressed, broke and deeply in debt.
Maybe it’s some form of mental illness but it’s just simply the fact that any other options. They told us when we were in the police academy that even if you make it to a service pension, because most won’t, 68% will be dead in five years or less. These are people in their 50s, they started that gig in their early twenties. After 25 years, people in their early to mid-50s, almost 70% are dead within five years. Most don’t even make it to the service pension. They’re gone because of a physical disability, injury, or a mental disability. I think the first day of the academy, “Congratulations. You work so hard to get in here, now let us tell you your future.” What they failed to mention in addition to that as if that wasn’t bleak enough, is you’re going to be broke your entire life and you’re going to die broke. As much as I wanted to quit, it was either that was my future or quit the police department, play in a rock band which is making $50 a night playing cover music, sleeping under a bridge, eating out of dumpsters. I simply couldn’t quit.
Dan, what you’re describing is the perseverance that comes from need. There are other people who’ve written about that, the desire to succeed because if you don’t, you end up completely broke. This is a motivator. It’s a great motivator too, it works well is as you can tell it worked great for you, but there are a lot of people who are not in that place. They have a wife. Their wife could make a six-figure salary even, and yet they still have that perseverance. For me, that drive came from an incident early in my childhood where I watched as my dad left the house, leaving my mom behind, who then had to take a minimum wage job to try and support the family. My sister and I both came to the same conclusion after months and months of her really struggling, we started to sneak money into her wallet because we wanted to make sure that she had enough money to pay for the house and food for the family.
The point that I was making is that my sister and I made the decision that we would never be broke. Never. It’s too painful. It’s too ugly. We just won’t do it. We never talked about that decision until many, many years later. It brought us to where we both are today, which my sister is about to retire from the New York State Supreme Court. She was a clerk to a Supreme Court judge for most of her career and is just loved throughout the court system and has made many wonderful contributions. Unlike her, she had one steady path. Me, it’s been different things throughout my life like you, trying different things, trying to make something work.
Early on I made a software company work and it was great. Then I floundered for years until Chet Holmes and I came up to the idea of maybe me helping him, and then that worked. I floundered some more after that. It’s a process. Entrepreneurship can be ugly sometimes and I think we’re proof of that, but the perseverance is the part I want to stress here. I love the fact that you just know that it was so important to you to keep going that you did. Let’s talk a little bit about the whole direct mail thing and the direct response marketing industry. You’re one of the very lucky few people to be mentored by Gary Halbert. For those who are not sure who Gary is, Dan, give us a little background on Gary and then tell us how you came about doing that and what the result was.
Gary was quite a colorful character in the world of direct response marketing and in back in the mail order days. I’ll give you the part of the story that most people don’t know. Here’s the story that people who’ve heard of Halbert know this part of the story. He wrote a one-page sales letter, typed on a typewriter, that created a business called Halbert’s. It became a huge multi-million-dollar mail order business personally putting tens of millions of dollars in net profit in his pocket and his partner’s pocket. It sold a family coat of arms. You’d get a letter that said, “Dear Mr. Russo, did you know that your family coat of arms is recorded?” It’s those things back in the day that they put on the Knight Shield and each family had their particular coat of arms. The letters sold a drawing of your family coat of arms, just a one-page letter, just a couple hundred words. I don’t remember the exact word count. He built a huge business.
At one time, Gary said that letter was mailed over 600 million times. It was so successful he’d figured out how to make a direct mail sales letter work just mailing to a list out of the phone book. What he did is he figured out how to create a personalized letter back in the day before that technology was even available. He just wrote a letter for each of the last names he was mailing. He had a letter for the Russos, he had letter her for the Smiths and the Jones, and it looked like it was typed on a typewriter, which it was actually. People thought they were getting a personalized letter. That’s Halbert’s claim to fame as a copywriter, but the part that most people don’t know is his partner in that business, Dennis Hasslinger, supported Gary for four years. Dennis has a successful insurance business and he literally paid all of Gary’s bills for four years while Gary tried to figure out the mail order business. They tried different products, different markets, different letters, failure after failure after failure for four straight years until finally he hit on this coat of arms idea. Gary became well-known for that and then well as copywriter who later started hiring himself out to write copy for other people’s products.
At first you made it sound he woke up one morning, wrote a few hundred words letter and turned it into millions. What you’re saying is that there were four hard years of struggling to make something work before that letter came about. Is that right?
It took four years to create that letter to the point where it works.
Gary is legendary. When I was building my software company, I used to read Jay Abraham’s newsletters. He hasn’t had them for years. Jay mentioned Gary Halbert. I sent away for a free sample of Gary’s newsletter and that’s when I became a fan of Gary. I knew him from the 1980 early 1990s. I certainly was aware of him, but his fame just became so outrageous because of later in life, some of the amazingly big projects that he was responsible for. I didn’t know this, but we came to learn that he had basically a number of people who mentored under him, of which you were one of them. Tell us how that happened.
I’d already been successful as a copywriter writing copy for my own businesses. I’m completely self-taught in copywriting. I didn’t even read any books, initially at least. I didn’t even know there were books about it. I was so green, I didn’t even really understand what I was doing. I just observed what Dan Kennedy was doing to sell his info product, the Magnetic Marketing Kit, and just duplicated that process to sell my self-published bodybuilding course. It was completely self-taught and I thought, “If I could just work with somebody who knows this stuff, then I could get through the learning curve faster and be successful faster.” I found out about Gary Halbert from Dan Kennedy’s newsletter. I subscribed to Halbert’s newsletter and in one of the issues, he gave a technique for getting the attention of a big shot. What I did is I turned that around and use it on him.
Halbert grew up in the same town I grew up in, Barberton, Ohio. Interestingly we both struggled with the same mindset issues, maybe because that is the prevalent mindset of people grew up in Barberton, Ohio. We had that in common, and so I wrote this fake newspaper article. I had it designed by graphic designer so it looked like it was on the front page of the Barberton Herald. I wrote an article about these two guys from Barberton decided to join forces and work together on these mail order businesses. I put a bunch of references in there to Barberton that I knew he’d find funny. The gist of the thing was these two Barberton guys were so successful and made so much money, they bought the entire city of Barberton and turned it into the world’s largest parking lot.
I put that article in the fanciest frame I could find and FedEx-ed it to his office. That was step one, that got me on the radar. It got me a phone call from him to thank me for it. At least one time a month after that, I sent something similar to him via mail or via FedEx, something to grab his attention and to stay in front of him. Then he wrote in his newsletter about Costa Rica and all the things he thought were great about it. I send him a fax and said, “I just read your issue about Costa Rica. I love to ask you some questions about Costa Rica.” He called me when his Costa Rican girlfriend was in town to answer my questions and a little less than 30 days after that, by that time I had his personal email, I sent him an email. I said, “Gary, remember the conversation we had about Costa Rica? I either sold or gave away all my earthly possessions except two changes of clothes, one guitar, my Doberman and I moved there.” Sight unseen, I moved there based on a conversation with him.
My motivation was, I knew that he went there regularly to visit his girlfriend and I thought, “Maybe the next time he’s in town, I’ll get a few minutes of his time,” which I did. The next time he’s in town we had dinner. This was a year and a half process to get to that point. Then the next time he came back he said, “Would you mind if I crashed in your spare bedroom?” He stayed there for three or four months in my spare bedroom. Then he talked me into moving back to the states and moving into the same apartment building as him to work on some projects together. It was a year and a half process but that’s what it was. I just used his techniques on him.
Dan, another quick question for you. We’ve shared a lot of great stories about how you’ve got to this point and the businesses that you’ve created using this talent that you developed on your own and then later fine-tuned through the help of others, direct response marketing. What advice would you give people listening to this show who are at the point where they are working as a copywriter, but maybe haven’t cracked the code yet or gotten to the point where they’ve had that huge success?
That’s a frustrating place to be. I know because I’m still there. There are times where I start to feel a little entitled, Mitch. I have near quarter of a century writing direct response copy and I write something, “I’ve been doing this an awful long time,” This feeling of a sense of entitlement, like everything I do should work. I have a much better batting average than I did when I started, but still there are plenty of strikeouts. Even somebody who’s been doing this for a long time has those episodes that they go through. I wish I could give you the magic wand but it’s simply just persevering, not quitting, just continuing to learn, continuing to immerse yourself in it. Learn more and more, learn from other people. Learn from books, most importantly, learn by doing. Especially when you’re writing copy for your own projects, your own businesses, you’ve got big time incentive to figure it out and figure it out fast as opposed to the hired gun who gets paid a fee and if it bombs you still got paid.
I didn’t become a higher gun copywriter really until fairly recently, until just about five years ago. Prior to that, 90%of all the copy I wrote was always for my own businesses. Maybe it’s because that’s how I learned and that’s how Gary Halbert learned, I still think if somebody wants to be a copywriter, the most important thing they can do is to write copy for their own business because now you’re putting your money where your mouth is. It’s a completely different experience. If it doesn’t work, there’s teeth there. You are going to lose money, obviously lose time too. Guys like us as we get older, we realize that way more valuable than the money. When it’s your own money on the line, you’ve got skin in the game as opposed to just the higher gun. You get paid your fee regardless if it bombs.
I love what you just said. What you’re basically saying is that if you’re a copywriter, just sell the damn thing.
It’s exactly what I’m saying, with a nod to Halbert. That’s what he always told me when I say, “Gary would you check out my copy?” He reads the first couple pages and I was clearing my throat or not getting to the point or whatever. He just usually crumples it up and throw it back at me and grunt, “Just sell the damn thing.”
What you’re basically saying is beginning copywriters, practice. Use the lessons, use people, get mentors, read books, take courses, but go sell yourself. That’s what I’m hearing Dan say to me. Go sell your services and put your money where your mouth is and prove that you could write the copy that will literally sell your own services. That’s great advice. I love that. I think that applies to everybody with almost every product, whatever it is. I get caught sometimes in product creation for long, long periods of time before I remember I’ve got to actually sell it to make it worth anything. Great reminder there as well. Dan, at this stage in your life, you have created some pretty successful businesses. You built a supplement company and you sold it. You also have an advisory service and a newsletter. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
When I launched that, my full-time business back then was still a supplement business I had in the bodybuilding market. Every year I re-read all of Gary Halbert’s newsletters, usually around the end of the year. One December after re-reading all of Halbert’s newsletters, I just made this quick, ready, fire, aim decision that, “I’m going to start my own newsletter,” because I just wanted to start passing along all the lessons that I’ve learned along the way through my own experiences.” I knew that if I had a newsletter that people were paying me for, it forced me to meet my deadline as opposed to just a blog where there’s no consequence. If you say, “I’m going to do a new blog post,” and you don’t do it, there are no consequences. It started as just a physical paper and ink newsletter subscription. It’s grown, the paper and ink newsletter are still one of the deliverables. There’s also a membership site with content about online marketing, offline marketing, market research, lots of copywriting content, and more so because I’m focused more on this now because now I know it’s the secret. It’s some mindset training too.
Then I also do a monthly webinar for my members. It changed from just a newsletter subscription, just called the Doberman Dan Letter. Now it’s changed into what I affectionately call the Marketing Camelot. I call my subscribers or members the knights in the Marketing Camelot. I do a Webinar for my knights, but sometimes there’s a special guest on a particular topic or sometimes I’ll do a teaching on one particular topic, but the most important thing that happens at those webinars is when my knights get their questions answered by me. Whatever they’re dealing within their business or they want some feedback on results or metrics they have, I address those in the webinars.
I’ve got to tell you for myself, I think the most effective way to really learn anything is to teach it. I know that as you write that newsletter every week, you’re reinforcing so much of what you’ve already learned and that’s valuable. I think that’s valuable for anybody who is at a point in their lives where they know it’s time to give back, and at the same time, they want to attract the type of audience that frankly will pay them every month. It’s a great vehicle and I bet your members get a lot out of it. That’s amazing. We’re at the point in our conversation, Dan where I have a couple of questions I want to ask you. These are the questions that I ask every guest and I asked them for a reason. Usually these questions help us understand you better, and that’s why. Let me start with the first one. Who, in all of space and time, would you like to have one hour to enjoy a walk in the park, a quick lunch or an intense conversation with?
This is such a great question. I racked my brain about this for a while because I’ve got a lot of heroes. Some are business heroes, some are music heroes. It was the first default thing that my brain went to when I thought about that question. It’s what business hero, what musician hero but the more thought about it, I had a total epiphany. I would like to have that walk in the park with my great grandfather. The guy who got his real name screwed up by the immigration people. Sadly, I don’t know the full story but he emigrated here from Quebec, Canada, living in poverty, didn’t speak a word of English and his real last name was Galipeau. I don’t know how he came to it but somehow, he wound up acquiring some land and became a successful farmer. I even found a story online where a tornado came through his land and he grabbed his kids because they were outside. He grabbed his kids and hugged them around a tree while the tornado passed through.
This guy comes to the new country, didn’t speak a word of English and his wife had to teach them English. They start this farm that was successful. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not like he was a millionaire and multimillionaire but for a guy who came from poverty, had a successful farm, grew soy and corn, and worked that farm his entire life. My grandfather during the depression lost everything and actually had to move back home to the farm. Maybe I’m just exaggerating things in my mind because sadly, my family never shared the full story with me. Perhaps I just never showed enough interest that they bothered but that’s a man’s man there. He really accomplished something and that’s a guy I can be proud of and I would like to know more about my heritage and I would like him to be the guy that I have that lunch or walk in the park with.
I asked this question, I’ve asked over a hundred times, and I get lots of answers like Jesus and Elon Musk and Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs, but a few people named family members. When they talk about that, what you hear in their voice is that desire to go deeper within themselves, because I think when I hear people say that I’m listening to someone who’s really truly interested in exploring who they are by trying to understand where they came from. I admire that answer. I thought it was great, and if I could do it for you, I would. So far, I have not been given that ability. However, we have one more question for you. It’s called the grand finale and it’s the change the world question. What is it that you are doing or would like to do that truly has the potential to literally change the world?
Maybe I wasn’t completely transparent, Mitch. I said I was ready for this but maybe I’m not totally ready because I vacillated between giving what would be considered a politically correct answer or giving what at this period in my life will be the true answer, which I think many people, even especially people who know me and have known me for years, will think that I’ve gone completely bat doo-doo cuckoo. I’ve had these grand ideas of what I would like to do to change the world or sometimes I think certain things I’m doing have the potential to change the world. With my Marketing Camelot, I have sometimes I think, “Should I start another business? Maybe I should start another supplement business.” Then I think, if I do that, that makes me successful. If I focus on my Marketing Camelot and I’m able to launch and encourage other successful entrepreneurs, then results multiplied.
I don’t even know. It’s not a proven entity whether or not I can change the world. What I really want to do and I am working hard to do right now is to change myself, to change my world. I keep exploring how to do that and how exactly do I want to change. What is the change I can make in me that will change the world? I’m as a flawed and fallible human being as they come. The thing I keep coming back to that I keep seem to be getting pointed to the way that I can change the world oftentimes is completely counter-intuitive to what my nature seems to be, completely counter to what I really want to do.
As an ex-cop, I often would just prefer to punch somebody in the face and be done with them. I think the most important thing that I can do, and I am trying to the best of human abilities to do this is just to live in love and love people. There are some people that it is really easy to love them, no problem there. In the course of my life and in my business dealings, there are some very unlovable people. It’s really difficult to love them. That’s when you’ve really got to focus on what the ultimate goal is. At the end of my life could I look back and say, “I’ve stacked up this amount of money or I’ve started these businesses or I’ve helped these people start businesses.” That’s all a good thing and I used to think I could say my life was a success had I done that and now I’m changing. I would like to at the end of my life, look back and say, “I’m just a guy who loved people.”
That is spoken like a man who has been through life and has learned the lessons of being a responsible adult. More important, you’ve experienced the benefits of success and you know what that feels like. You’ve also experienced the benefits of being loved and loving others and reaching out to people and feeling what it’s like to help another. That is, in my opinion, one of the greatest gifts ever. That’s why I ask this question on the show. I don’t know if I’ve said this on the show before, but my system which is called ResultsBreakthrough.com is all about helping people find each other and find accountability partners so that they can succeed in life, but there’s another element of my program. When you become a member, you get a chance to become a ten-minute mentor to Inner City Youth Kid who would love to have a nonjudgmental adult to talk to a few times a month.
The reason I did this, Dan, is because maybe if I had an adult, a nonjudgmental adult to talk to when I was in high school, maybe I wouldn’t have reached for that needle. Maybe I wouldn’t have but that’s probably to me now, one of the greatest missions I’ve ever been on. It’s not so much to make another buck. It’s to see if it’s possible me to affect 10,000 kids. That’s my goal, to affect 10,000 kids and to potentially step in, avert a disaster, change the direction of another human being, and get them on a path where they can truly experience the joys of loving others, just like you said.
That is a true change the world activity there, Mitch.
It’s so far from even being near a reality, but I keep working on it every day because I love the way it feels when I think about the core goal and the way it might end up. Dan, it’s been a great pleasure spending time with you. I have to say that this is an unusual interview for me. We do get a lot more into detail on process and the stuff that people need to do to be successful, but this has been about two people connecting and I think these connections, whether you make the listeners through my show or in life, they’re the most important because this is what another person looks like on the inside. I hope that you are able one day to express yourself as beautifully as Dan has today.
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