Businesses is relationship between people, and selling is not about pushing people and putting a lot of sales pressure on the sales event, the sales page, the sales call, and so on. It’s all about creating a marketing strategy and creating messaging and communication that is all-around, installing buying beliefs. That’s what respect-based marketing is all about. CEO and Founder of Wild Audience Bastian Ernst explains respect-based marketing is offering something to relevant to a person that solves that person’s problem. Bastian says if you do that, that person will actually thank you and appreciate you, and you don’t push anything onto someone. Learn more about respect-based marketing and how you can pull people into your sphere of influence so that they want to make the move and actually talk to you and buy from you.
Respect-Based Marketing: Installing Buying Beliefs with Bastian Ernst
I want to start this show with a question, “Is it important for people to respect you before they buy from you?” After all, you don’t respect or disrespect most people who you buy commodities from, but you do respect the brand of the place where you make your purchase or else you wouldn’t buy there. How about if you took the approach in your own business to gain respect first before trying to sell?
Our guest started his professional life living in a garage in Silicon Valley, sleeping on a homemade bunk bed, working sixteen hours a day for practically no pay and he wasn’t happy. Yet to him, this was the typical Silicon Valley life. Hustling during the day, coding all night and life was taking its toll. Burnout was near and his big vision for his life was not even in view. He decided to pivot, jump on a plane to Costa Rica, took up residence at a yoga temple, gained perspective and then went onto accidentally discover his true calling and he’s about to share it with us. Welcome, Bastian Ernst, to the show.
Mitch, what’s up?
I’m glad you’re here. This is an incredible story. I’d love for you to tell us a little bit more about this. Let’s go back and help us understand exactly what was happening back then for you.
I grew up in Vienna in Austria and I always loved entrepreneurship. I knew I’m going to run my own company. That was always clear for myself, but in Austria or at least in my environment where I lived, I didn’t really know much about it. There was this event, a startup conference and I saw this one guy, delivering a keynote and I saw him on stage. There were maybe five or more people listening. I immediately fell in love with the guy. His name is Steli Efti, he’s the CEO of Close.io. I was eighteen, nineteen, maybe seeing this guy and I was like, “That’s my mentor. I want to work for this guy. I want to learn everything possible from this guy.”
My mission of that weekend was to make him remember my name. When I was fourteen, probably a lot of your audience have the dream if you’re young to go to Silicon Valley and learn the ins and outs of the startup world. Be around people like Mark Zuckerberg and so on. That was always my dream. I thought this guy could help me achieve it. For me, the goal was that he remembers my name, I was the most annoying young eighteen, nineteen-year-old little guy you can imagine. Luckily, I was able to make him remember my name. On the second day, he was like, “Basti, don’t stalk me. You’re a stalker.” It was a little bit negative, but the goal was achieved. We jumped on a call a week later, that was my one-way ticket to Silicon Valley. That’s where everything started. I learned everything about sales, marketing, SaaS and startups, and so on from Steli. That was awesome
The lesson here is, find somebody, stalk them, make them talk to you, and then ensure that they end up becoming your mentor?
He published a bunch of books and I read them, and then I use what he teaches in the books on him. We were on the phone, he’s a salesperson, so he’s really well-known in the sales industry. I used what is called the virtual close. You put someone into the shoes of being sold. I made him imagine of how we would work together. It’s called the virtual close and he realized that, and he loved it. That worked out for me.
The virtual close. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about how that does work?
You have your conversation on the phone. If you want to get someone to do something for you, or you want to close the deal, basically, once you think this is going to be a close, you actually want to make that person literally imagine how it would be if you guys would work together. You ask a question. If we would start working with each other, if I will be your intern, that’s what I said, when would be the starting date? What will be the steps for me to take in order to get started with you? Do I have to get a visa? What are the steps? You actually make that person think through the whole process, so you know everything you need to know in order to make that happen. This person lives the experience of working with you, in my case.
In a sense, what you’re doing is you’re helping them visualize what it would be like working together, and that made it real to him obviously. He got closer to inviting you out there, and then he did. You had to go through that process.
You’ll know exactly what the steps are to close that person because he or she tells you.
What year is this now?
That was maybe three years ago.
You ended up in Silicon Valley, you now have your mentor in front of you. What is it that he wants you to do?
I worked full-time for his company and that’s awesome. I learned a lot, but for me the biggest takeaway is I got him to agree that we have one walk a week. That was always on Wednesday. It was basically from the office to the closest coffee shop. I was able to walk next to him. I’m this person who asks a lot of questions. I’m really annoying. Once a week, I walk with him and I ask him everything, from relationships to business, on SaaS and everything. That really created a bond between us, and now we’re friends. We’re not working any more together but we’re friends. We meet once a year, we go on a sailing trip. It was a really a really cool experience having a mentor, then this mentor becomes your friend.
It’s actually quite clever, what you did. It’s a great lesson for others. If you can arrange to have a walk with someone who you want to talk to every week, then you have the keys to their wisdom, which is wonderful. I’m impressed that you figured that out at such a young age. How’d you end up living in the garage?
It’s just very expensive in Silicon Valley. At that time, I shared the garage with four other people, in total we were five. There were no windows, it’s just the huge garage door which you open up, and all the light comes in. At that time, I think I paid $800 for this bed for this garage sharing it with five other people. That was cool because it was a huge house. It was like a house in the house. Fifteen, sixteen people lived in that house, and just four, five of us in the garage. It was cool. It was next to Stanford, it was a very cool experience. People were very open-minded, spiritual, and very entrepreneurial. Everyone was working on really cool things.
You are at this point living in the startup house, you’re working with your mentor at Close.io, you’re learning a lot of lessons but at the same time, you’re not feeling very fulfilled from the story that we had shared before. Tell us about that transition.
I always knew I wanted to start my company. It was not a question of if, but when. It was just the right moment being at the right time. It was just the perfect time. I was like, “Let’s do it. Let’s jump into cold water.” At that time, I either had to commit full-time and for a longer period of time to work with Close.io, which I loved. I loved the stay, I loved the team, I loved the company. I just tried starting my own company. That’s what I did. That’s why I did it. We separated in good terms and he’s still my friend, he’s still supporting me and so on, but I did it. I cut all the ropes, burned all the bridges, and bought a ticket to Costa Rica because it’s way cheaper to live there than in Silicon Valley. If you want to live in Silicon Valley, you either have a VC backing you or you have a good job and you make a lot of money. But if you bootstrap something in Silicon Valley, it’s not possible.
Did you have a connection in Costa Rica or did you just pick a place that’s probably a little temporary, warm environment to work in?
Yes. I had three common things I wanted. It’s good weather, cheap living costs, and surfing. That’s why.
I’m glad that you included the surfing part because if it’s no fun, it’s not worth it.
That was a really cool choice. I was literally working on the beach. I became friends with a girl. She was the receptionist of a hotel and the hotel had really fast Internet on the beach. I think there is a picture on my website where I sit on the beach with this really fast internet, looking at the ocean and working away. It was really cool.
That internet service was free. Every day, wherever you were living you picked up and you walked over and sat there and worked in front of the hotel?
That is pretty cool. Don’t tell us the name of the hotel or else there’s going to be a lot of people on that beach. How long did it take? You moved to Costa Rica, did you have the idea for the company that you are in now before you left Silicon Valley?
I’ve always loved marketing, I was good at marketing, at least that’s what I thought. I want to become really good at marketing. I thought the best way to do that or achieve that will be by starting a marketing company. That’s what I did. I tried to help other people with marketing, while learning about marketing. It was a journey of at least six months until I figured out what I want to do or what I’m good at. There were three pivots.
Let’s chat about that, Bastian. The reason that I asked to stop you and talk about these things, is because we all go through them, and the people here in the show go through them, too. We all have our demons, or that negative self-talk that goes on between our ears. That basically tells us, “No, you can’t. This is not going to work. Why does the world need one more person like you, etc.?” How did you fight that stuff and breakthrough? How did you pivot three times?
My approach was the following. I wanted to start a company. I wanted to make money. I knew it’s going to be marketing but I didn’t know what exactly this. MVP, is a minimum of viable product. If you build a software, you built a minimum version of that software and you figure out if it’s a product market fit, if people actually like it and would buy it. I thought maybe I’ll make it even a step before that, but it’s called an MVA, minimum viable audience. You build an audience, you start a blog. I start to blog about marketing. I create a blog post about different things in marketing and to learn about it. I started to create a little audience around me. Once I have that audience, I can ask them, “What do you need help with?” I’ll freelance for these people until I figure out what I want to fix. That’s the problem I want to solve and then offer a service or a product around this. That was the idea of MVA, a minimum viable audience approach.
The thing that I hear from many people, and I’m talking about smart people who have blogs with 40, 50 articles, and they don’t get a single response. Is it because they’re not very good writers or is it because they don’t know how to market their blog?
For me, the biggest question always was, “Should I blog a lot and then sacrifice quality or create this amazing piece?” For me, the answer to your question would be, if you create something truly amazing, long, super high quality, people will actually start caring. That’s the approach I took. If you check out blogs and they don’t have much people checking it out, that’s the reason in my opinion. If you look at my blog, you will find right now, Wild Audience. We only have four blog posts but each blog post is killing it. That’s the approach we take.
You started doing some freelance work for some folks, a couple of false starts and then, when did your epiphany arrive that this whole thing turned into what you are now?
The moment was when I created an article, a blog post, and I shared it on forums and that was on Inbound.org and GrowthHackers.com, which is like a Facebook for marketers, which is my industry. I’ve got a lot of response. I was actually on the first page for a week. The thing was, I’ve got a lot of negative response as well. At the beginning I was like, “How can people be so aggressive? Why do they write some negative? Am I not that valuable? Did I suck?” This one guy, Nathan, he told me, “Don’t worry about it so much. People care enough that they comment. Even though you’re 50% negative, 50% positive, people care enough that they comment.” That’s exactly what happened. I’ve got a lot of exposure because of that. I just took the negative things and learn from them, iterate it. After that, I fixed the problems, which were the negative things, and that’s when I pivoted into what we do now.
What you call your system is Respect-Based marketing. That is a cool name. I know that most people who named the things that they have, have tried many things before, thought about it for a long time. Where did the name Respect-Based Marketing come from?
Before I was doing Respect-Based Marketing or I coined the term, I even have the .com URL and showing companies how do we use Respect-Based Marketing, implementing it into the business. I was not doing Respect-Based Marketing, I was doing what everyone else was doing. I was building sales funnels. I used a lot of content. I used fake scarcity, fake urgency. I used bonus one, two, three just to put as much pressure as possible onto the sales pitch to get people to convert. That’s how most companies operate now, in the past, and still do. I did it, too. The thing is if you do that plus, if you rely on monthly promotions, product launches, PLF, Product Launch Formula by Jeff Walker, all these things you make yourself and your revenue is very much dependent on that monthly promotion, on that birthday promotion, on that day of happiness promotion.
If you screw up your email system, or anything screws up, you are screwed because you’re so much dependent on it. That’s exactly what happened to me. I was depending on that promotion. I was using all that pressure with the content timer is on. I failed. I lost my entire month’s revenue. I was, “Never again.” That’s when I transitioned to Evergreen marketing, building sales funnels that offer products and marketing company conversation in an Evergreen fashion, meaning people can buy your stuff all the time, 24/7, 365. The second thing, what I changed was I removed the pressure. I removed the countdown timers and that’s why we call it Respect-Based Marketing. Business is relationships between people. I asked myself while looking at the counter timers’, bonus one, two, three and the fake scarcity where is the relationship? Business is relationship between people and that’s what I was missing, that’s why I brought it back by combining never changing elements like respect of authority, relationships, buying beliefs with modern automation, both together is what Respect-Based Marketing is all about.
How would you describe the definition of respect?
It’s offering something to someone that is relevant to this person. It solves that person’s problem. If you do that, this person will actually truly thank you and appreciate you. You don’t push anything onto someone. Instead, you actually pull people into your sphere of influence. That’s what I always say, “Selling is not about pushing people and putting a lot of sales pressure on the sales event, on the sales page, on the webinar and so on, or on a sales call. It’s all about creating a marketing strategy, creating messaging and communication that is all-around installing buying beliefs.” If you go to a supermarket and you want to buy an orange, you will never buy that orange if you truly believe that orange is yummy or healthy. If you believe that, you will buy it. This is exactly true for all services and products people sell out there. You first want to install the buying beliefs and pull people towards you and then they want to make the move and actually talk to you, buy from you and so on.
Bastian, it sounds great and it makes sense. Many people think they’re already doing that. Let’s get into how your process works and what it is that you are actually doing when you work with the clients and when you’re setting up a Respect-Based Marketing campaign. Let’s go through the steps.
The first thing I always say, “That’s something I learned from Gary V.” He always says, “Attention is the currency of business.” On the one hand, you want to attract people’s attention but then the most important part is how do you keep and how do you maintain that attention? You can start pitching, selling whatever you want, but if you don’t know how to maintain that, this person will not listen. That’s the first thing to understand. Once you understand this, we first need to attract people. Usually, we do this through a PDF, a lead magnet. This could be a podcast like what you do. It could be a blog post, it could be a YouTube video, it could be anything. You want to attract people. You put something out there. It’s extremely important that this lead magnet is 100% aligned to your product or offer or service. Someone who’s interested in the lead magnet may also be interested in your offer.
We put out a ten-page PDF, just to make it simple. We promote it with Facebook ads. We put that PDF out. People sign up with first name and email address. That’s how it usually works. We do it a little bit different. We use something what we call lead bucketing opt-in. We truly want to understand who the people are that enter our world. We asked them one question. It’s cool that you want to sign up for our lead magnet, can you just answer one question and this question is all around the problem. What is your biggest problem? We help people with sales funnels.
Our question would be, what is your biggest problem right now with your sales funnel? We offer multiple choice answer, tell us the problem. They get access to the lead magnet. What happens, a company gives the lead magnet away or the bonus, and then send some automated emails. That’s how it usually works. We do it slightly different. We add one or two steps in between. The first thing is on that thank you page, when they sign up for that lead magnet, it says on our thank you page, “Thanks for signing up for my awesome PDF. I’ve actually created a six-lesson course to solve your problem,” which it just told me.
We personalize the content on that website. Do you want to join that free course? They say yes. In order to join the course, they need to answer four to five questions and that’s usually around what’s your goal and then around your product or whatever you do. You really want to understand who that person is. You have lead bucketing at the landing page where you asked what’s their problem. Then you have an onboarding survey where you have four or five questions. Then you have all the data you need to be relevant and personal. You can customize an entire sales experience. That’s what’s happening here.
On the second hand or another thing that’s happening is people raised their hand instead of just sending them emails, people actually say, “Yes, please send me emails.” That changes the game not only for you, but also for them because they raised their hands and that’s called a micro-investment. They micro-invest into you and into your content. If they do this, everything else or the chances that they will actually engage with the first email, the second email, click a link, open the emails and so on, check out your sales page is where we hire because they initially micro-invested in what you do. Does that make sense so far?
It makes a lot of sense. It sounds familiar. It sounds like Ryan Levesque’s Ask Formula.
Ryan Levesque, he does especially lead bucketing stuff. He’s really good at that. I’m not sure about the survey.
I think he creates the survey too. It sounds like you’ve implemented the Ask formula, which is great by the way. What you’ve done is you’ve taken it one step further. Here’s what I heard that is unique that I think is awesome, and I think that anybody could easily do. Instead of taking them from the lead magnet on the thank you page to, “How would you like to buy this cool course for $79?” instead you’re giving it away and the currency is to answer six questions. That is awesome.
I really liked that and the course, if it’s valuable, will inspire them to continue and want more from you. It’s almost as if you need to create a course worth $500, not so much because you want them to answer the questions, it’s because what you want is to have created the respect that you are the person who you say you are, that you are delivering in advance this incredible content and wisdom and knowledge so that they can get to the next step in their world, and you’re the guy to go to for the step that comes after that.
The course is usually six to seven lessons. It’s usually IMA-based, it could be Bot-based as well. The main thing about the course is, that it is all around the belief system. The belief system is everyone, you have a belief system, I have a belief system and that everyone has it. That’s how we walk through life. That’s how we say this is right, this is wrong. I’m buying this, I’m not buying this. Your job through that course is to install the right beliefs, so that once someone actually checks out what you offer, checks out the sales page, jumps on a call, meet you in a one on one meeting in the coffee shop, joins your webinar, your live or your Evergreen Webinar, once the sales event is happening, this person already has all the buying beliefs in store. The way you do this is by asking yourself, “What does my ideal client need to believe in order to accept the desire or need of my product or service?” Once they accept and have all these beliefs installed, it’s a no-brainer to actually buy. On the sales page it’s very easy. You just need to push them a little bit and get them into whatever you sell.
The cool thing, just to add one more thing, because you have all that data which is, as you said, from Ryan Levesque, you can personalize the entire experience. You would put people into buckets. You have the questions and based on the answers you can say, this is my Avatar A, B and C. These are the typical people I deal with, these three different types of people. You can actually customize the experience in the emails, on your website, and in your bot messages or returning funnels. We use a multiple general approach where you communicate with people through many channels.
For emails, you can use your ESP like Active Campaign or Drip where you customize your stuff. The websites, you can customize through a tool like RightMessage for example. For bot messages, you can use ManyChat that integrates with your ESP through CPR. They all communicate with each other, and you can create this really amazing sales experience where people really enjoy. The reason why my people become my customers is because they say, “I loved your sales experience so much. I want to be able to offer the same thing to my people as well.” If you really want to make selling a fun and enjoyable event, that’s what you do if you are relevant.
You’re using the free course to align your buyer with your own products and services. Your course is making sure that you are at least confirming, if not installing the values that you believe in, that would lead them into the next phase of buying your product. It’s very clever and I really understand what you’re doing. It sounds great. You talked a little bit about using some technology to even get this process started right on the homepage of a website. You talked about, RightMessage.com as a piece of technology that sits at the front of your site and then asks a few questions in advance before delivering the “pitch” that the website was there to deliver. Is that right?
You’ve got it, exactly.
You mentioned some other tools. Just for our listeners, why don’t you restate what those are?
The main tool you need is an ESP, an email service provider, something like MailChimp, we usually don’t recommend that. We use Drip, Active Campaign, Infusionsoft where you can segment, your people can automate things. Active Campaign is what I use. Another one is for bots is ManyChat. That’s what we use. It’s just like email but you send it in Facebook Messenger bots. For personalization, RightMessage. To make all the tools communicate with the each other, we have the survey. We use SurveySlam. You collect the survey and you store the data in your CRM or ESP, which is Active Campaign. You want to make sure that data is available in all of your tools. For that, we use Zapier. That basically is the bridge between the tools
This is very procedural in the way that you’re doing this. If you follow these steps and you go from the process of interest to then indoctrinating your potential buyer with the thinking and mindset that you want to have or at least checking in to see if they have that same mindset, the path to a purchase is fairly straightforward and at least to me, it makes a lot of sense. I like what you’re doing. I see the value of it.
There’s one more missing piece I would say. You want to make sure in your marketing, in your sales funnel, what we call the relationship funnel, that you optimize your marketing to get people engaged. If you get more people to click a link to your sales page in your emails, you exposed your sales page to more eyeballs. That’s why clicking is really important. Clicking is a form of engagement. How do you get people to actually engage with your stuff? We get our customers to get 50% to 60% click rate instead of 2% to 3% click rate. That’s the average. The reason why they get numbers like this is because we use different engagement methods. One for example, could be an activation hook or frequency selector.
The frequency selector for example, at the end of each email we give them the choice, do you want to get the next email? The next lesson now or tomorrow or in two days? People select, “I want to have it now or I want to have it tomorrow.” That again is a micro-investment, what we mentioned at the beginning. You have these different micro-investments through getting them to click, respond, have opt loops, cliffhangers, and so on. You want to increase the micro-investment and increase the request until to a big request, which is, “Buy my stuff.” It’s easier to then sell because that person already said yes a couple of times by clicking, by responding, by doing what you tell them to do. It’s all about increasing engagement because if you do that, you will also increase your sales.
Let’s go through the micro-investment engagement methods again. You have a frequency selector, which I understand. What other types of engagement methods do you suggest?
One big one for us that’s called the activation hook and that’s an email worm to get people to respond. We tell them what to respond. We have to make it really easy. The reason we do this is because we have seen the people who responded in that first email, the percentage of these people buying is way higher. The reason for that is the micro-investment into you. The way we do it, we tell them, “Respond with ready, to get the next lesson, plus three welcome gifts.” We give them a small, little eBook, a welcome video and something else. We want to make it really simple. They reply with ready. That’s another one, it’s called the activation of the frequency selector, then opt loops and cliffhangers. A cliffhanger is if you think about your favorite TV series, OC California or whatever. Basically, ten episodes in one series and each episode is connected to the next one. That’s the reason why when you watch an episode at the end, you’re really hooked. You want to know what happens. That’s why you continue with the second episode and the third episode.
Just like TV series in Hollywood is designed, you take the same concept and you put it into emails. Instead of having just like a normal random, boring email course or email sequence, you actually create a TV show with your emails. You connect all the emails, you create stories, you connect them and that’s how you get people to actually wait for your next email. We have screenshots of people actually going nuts because we have big cliffhangers at the end of the email that get them really excited and they want to know what happens next. Then they click the frequent selector link. I want to have the next email now. That’s how we get them to go through our thing.
It’s also really cool in terms of ROI. If you get someone in the past, you have an email sequence of seven emails, it takes seven days until someone can consume the whole thing because you have just a waiting period of one day in between. The frequency selector, the high engagers, they click now. We have customers who buy who see my Facebook ad in the morning, and then buy in the evening. They go speak, “Now, now, now.” They engage and that allows you to make your ROI back faster. You can reinvest that money back into ads, ads and grow faster. That’s another thing which is really cool.
I really like what you’re sharing here. I understand Bastian that you have a little bit of a guide or actually a free gift that everyone here can access. Could you tell us about the free gift and what it does?
It’s everything we talked about now in this episode, summarized in written format. If you want to know how to implement Respect-Based marketing, how to use all these engagement hooks, how to use the frequency selector, how to use all of this and how to see it in action, then you should check out WildAudience.com/podcast. You go to a link, click it and then follow the process. You see how everything folds out in front of your eyes. It’s really fun to watch.
This is a very innovative process. It borrows a lot from a lot of different things, but the way you’ve combined it together makes it really unique and I bet it works fantastic. I’m going to make a bet here, and maybe it’s a calculated guess, that you are about to experience Bastian’s incredible process just for going to the link and clicking on it. Is that right, Bastian?
Once you do, you will see a lot of things happening. Like personalized emails, personalized pages, you’ll see a bot message, you’ll see a Facebook ad, a Google ad, a YouTube ad, everything playing out. It’s pretty fun.
Don’t just click the link and get the PDF and leave it on your hard drive. Observe, watch the process as Bastian has designed it unfold in front of you. That’s as big a lesson as the material inside the free giveaway. Bastian, we get to the point in the show where everybody’s pretty excited now they’ve heard you speak, they know what you do and they want to find out more. Now it’s time to find out a little bit more about you. That’s what my next question is all about. This is a question that allows us to see a little bit more of who you really are. Who, in all of this space and time, would you like to have one hour to enjoy a walk in the park, a quick lunch or intense conversation with?
It will be James Aspey. James Aspey is an Australian guy who is the leader of the Vegan Movement. He’s helping to create a vegan world, meaning a world free of animal cruelty, plant-based foods which taste awesome. He is such an amazing guy, lovable guy and has a huge heart. I would love just to have a conversation with him and just get some love and energy from him.
He’s still alive, is that right?
Yes. He’s 30.
Why don’t you make that an objective for now? Why don’t you send him an email, tell him that you were just on a podcast and you named him as the one person you would love to connect with and you wonder if you could make it happen. Do your stalking thing again.
I should do that. Thanks for the suggestion.
Bastian, here’s the grand finale, the change the world question. What is it that you were doing or would like to do that truly has the potential to literally change the world?
That’s very simple for me. That’s something I want to spend my life doing. Just like James Aspey, creating a vegan world, meaning the way we consume animals, the way we wear them and all these things don’t have to happen. The cool thing is with food technology and clothes technology and all this new technology coming up, people sometimes don’t even realize if that’s animal food or not animal food. I see a future in ten to fifteen years, that is a cruelty-free, animal-free in terms of how we consume them in the world and people will love it. It’s way healthier, there’s way more love and we don’t need to kill any unnecessary beings. I’m someone who is really into Earth, nature, and planet. I really love animals. I think we’ll look back at this just like we look at slaves right now like, “Really, we did that?” I want to be one of these people who helps create that change.
I like your mission and I think it’s timely right now and the way the world is going. There is also some interesting information that I believe would help you in your mission. I interviewed a gentleman named Dr. Steven Gundry and he wrote a book called, The Plant Paradox. In that book he talks a lot about vegetables and the way we eat them, the way we prepare them, and potentially the danger of how plants being living beings themselves try to protect themselves by literally poisoning the very predators that we are. It’s fascinating because it’s a perspective I have never heard before.
At the same time, I think it aligns well with your message as well. I’ll give you a hint. He says in his discussion with me that he’s never met a healthy vegan. How’s that for controversial? The thing about life and the thing about our world is that there are just so many opinions and so many interesting conversations that we have and beliefs. I think it’s important to expose ourselves to all of them. I love what you shared. I hope you take advantage of the incredible gift that Bastian has offered. I can’t wait until we get a chance to talk again soon.
It was a lot fun, Mitch.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Bastian Ernst
- Wild Audience
- Product Launch Formula
- Ask Formula
- Active Campaign
- James Aspey
- Dr. Steven Gundry – previous episode
- The Plant Paradox
- WildAudience.com/Podcast – Link for free gift
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